Afraid to Communicate Your Needs and Wants? | Episode 16

No matter what your current relationship structure, having the courage to bring up a conversation around needs/wants can be scary, let alone admitting them to ourselves. In this episode of Amory we discuss these questions:Why are we afraid of discussing our needs and wants? What if your partner doesn’t know what they need or want? Why is it important to create a safe space for yourself and your partner(s)? And, how do you do it? Why is it important to time to reflect on our own needs? How do good intentions become a crutch? How have Megan and Marty used MDMA as a therapy tool?

At the end of the episode, we walk the walk- making real time requests of each other around our current needs.

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Podcast Audio Transcript

PODCAST AUDIO TRANSCRIPT

Megan: [00:00:02] Hi, guys.

Marty: [00:00:03] Hi.

Kyle: [00:00:03] Hey, Megan.

Megan: [00:00:05] It’s always so cheesy, I never know how to open it. Really?

Kyle: [00:00:09] With a New Zealand accent.

Megan: [00:00:09] I wish I could do a Kiwi accent. I can’t at all. But we’re in New Zealand, which is really cool. And we’re sitting in a bedroom again. This is the bedroom talk. So welcome listeners.

Marty: [00:00:18] It has to be, we have children.

Megan: [00:00:20] Welcome, listeners to our bedroom.

Marty: [00:00:22] We’re educating them with Frozen 2.

Megan: [00:00:25] Thank you. Disney. Not sponsored. Not sponsored by Disney. Definitely not. That would be kind of funny.

Marty: [00:00:31] Actually, Abc is owned by Disney and ABC has a show, Working Families or something like that, where they have a throuple and properly represented according to the World Wide Web.

Kyle: [00:00:44] I mean, when you mentioned that I’m like, they are going to screw that up and make it look so stupid.

Marty: [00:00:48] According to Instagram experts i.e. people we follow who have watched all of these episodes. They said it was properly and exciting represented.

Megan: [00:00:58] That’s you guys.

Kyle: [00:00:58] I trust that.

Megan: [00:01:01] We trust you. We haven’t watched it, but we trust you. Awesome. I don’t know how to segway that into what we were talking about. What are we talking about today?

Marty: [00:01:08] We can do whatever segway you want.

Kyle: [00:01:12] That’s a good segway.

Marty: [00:01:14] Thank you for knocking.In the middle of that segway, a child knocked on the door and interrupted us.

Megan: [00:01:23] Well, we’re back. That’s normal. We’re parents, yeah,.

Marty: [00:01:26] It’s part of being a poly, travelling family.

Megan: [00:01:28] It’s great. It’s a good problem to have. So back to the topic, which is the topic of the day.

Marty: [00:01:35] Did you know Megan can speak fluent French? And Spanish. And Catalan.  And some Portuguese.

Megan: [00:01:47] Yeah, that’s good. That’s enough.  That’s fine. I just like the way that you guys look at me. It’s great. Yeah. One day this podcast, you know, we can translate into different languages. Ok. Back on the topic of the day, which is something I’ve thought about a lot and what has come up so many times in the people, you know, people that we communicate with on Instagram. And the question is, how can I communicate better with my partners? And really more specifically, how can I express more about my needs and desires when there’s fear wrapped in there? Because that’s what happens, right? We have needs and wants and desires that we want out of a relationship. For me, I was really blind to a lot of my own needs and wants, which was made it fucking impossible really for me to acknowledge Marty’s needs and wants in our relationship earlier. So that to me is kind of the big general scope that I want to talk about because I want to be able to give people support and opening up these conversations. Yes. Ready, set, go, gentlemen.

Marty: [00:02:52] I’ll jump in on this. A lot of people don’t express their needs or wants for fear of loss. And it’s a worthiness thing as well. Asking for what you why could result in losing what you want most or what you already have. So you’ll settle for something less than what you want or need to avoid the loss of what you have now, which is incomplete. So, you know, one of the practices that we’ve talked about many times and I’ll keep pounding home is to practice the art of wanting without persuasion. Because you are allowed to declare your wants. And you have to accept no as an answer to your wants. But the persuasion builds and weakness it builds in desperation. And then wanting in desperation, you will receive desperate responses. And so you really have to declare your want boldly. You’re worthy of your want. And you also have to allow and accept the answer can be no.

Megan: [00:03:59] Sounds so easy when you say it.

Marty: [00:04:00] It is an easy technique. It is difficult fear to overcome.

Megan: [00:04:06] So I think that’s the first part is let’s say you actually acknowledge that you have a need or want that’s not being met in a partnership. How do you start to handle the fear that comes up, that fear of loss? Because I think that’s the first thing. And that’s a projected fear. Right. It’s not really happening, but I think it’s the biggest hurdle to actually opening up that conversation. So a lot of people even to go from being monogamous to polyamorous or opening up a relationship, there’s that’s a major hurdle because there’s a fear of loss of what if I lose my current partner?

Marty: [00:04:39] You don’t have your current partner. They are not an object. So one of the first things is to re-orientate. I’ll use a bigger word to solve my bad word.  You have to orientate… Why am I stuck on this word? You have to change your perspective, change your orientation towards your partners, her partner as an object and that you even have them. You know, it’s like what I did when we started this journey. I realized your heart was off. Your vision was off. Your fantasy was off. And that we were going to go down a path that was most likely going to lead to a divorce or a household that wasn’t loving, and that was the way I grew up. And I grew up with a shut down mom and I’m not going to allow that. And so I was like, I need to break this pattern. And I didn’t know what it was going to lead to. But in my mind, it was already lost. And this is where if the known outcome sucks, the unknown is less risky.

Megan: [00:05:48] Yeah, it’s a known outcome sucks. Basically, if you’re on a slow train wreck that you know where that’s going, get off the fucking train. Even if you don’t know where it’s going to lead to and jump into. Kyle.

Kyle: [00:06:04] Yeah, pain and trauma are opportunities. They’re opportunities to say, yeah, this is it. It’s time to change. They’re really motivational in that way. So that would be a similar way to think of this situation sucks, but I had the opportunity to completely change, change this pain, change the situation whatever is causing it.

Megan: [00:06:24] That’s a relationship to fear. So actually, I’ll go back to my original question, and it’s our relationship to fear. That is the first hurdle, because when we usually run away from fears like, oh, I’m in a monogamous relationship, I would like to talk to my partner about opening things up, but I’m afraid. And it’s that relationship to fear that’s first. Usually you’d run away back away from it. You wouldn’t do it, but it’s like, oh, there’s an opportunity there.

Marty: [00:06:50] It’s also like what comes to mind is when I’m seeking anyone, you, my other partner, anything to fill a void in my life. And my partner and I were just talking about this. Great, that person can help you learn in an area. But if you still have that void, then you have this desperation. You need to be whole with yourself. And that you have the power and capacity to overcome any consequence of the future. And the consequence of not declaring your needs or your wants could eat you alive for your whole life and make you less than whole. And by being a whole, declaring your wants and accepting all consequences, I guess there’s another thing that I learned in fighting, actually in physical fighting and technically street fighting because I had a very fucked up childhood in that way. Courage is doing something in spite of your fear. And there’s a moment that you can get to of fearlessness, which is where I accept all consequences for what’s coming next. I’m going to take this action and I accept all consequences. It makes you so much more powerful in a physical fight. Accepting death as a possible outcome makes you a ferocious fighter. I use this extreme example because it was how I learned it. But it also comes down to like even in my business, in other places where I feared that, you know, I was desperate for a big contract or every desperate contract that got resulted in a very desperate situation that sucked for me where I accepted the consequence of a no, I could lose this contract for holding my boundary or declaring need that my business has, that my team needs, that financially I need I would lose the clients that were not really clients and I would gain ones that were fully aligned with me where the projects flow and the money flow. And it goes right down the relationships, if I’m in a relationship where I’m desperate, I’m going to get that desperate relationship.

Kyle: [00:08:53] Bad energy and your not getting open to a partner or someone coming into your life that meet your needs and your wants. Your shutting yourself off to that possibility.

Marty: [00:09:05] If that partner is really worth my time and my effort in my life, then I should be able to declare my wants. And if I declare my wants and simply by declaring my wants. They will leave me then that was built on a house of cards anyway. And basically cutting off for hemorrhoids before it explodes on you. It’s like a stitch in time.

Kyle: [00:09:26] So I have a question, what if your partner doesn’t know what they want or doesn’t know what their needs are?

Megan: [00:09:32] He’s looking at me.

Kyle: [00:09:34] Well, I mean, but it’s a good question.

Megan: [00:09:36] It is. It’s a great question.

Kyle: [00:09:37] I think there’s a lot of people out there that probably are like, well, yeah, I asked my partner and she or he or whoever doesn’t know.

Megan: [00:09:44] No, it makes it really hard.

Kyle: [00:09:47] And I actually had a thought on that. I mean I wouldn’t ask the question if I didn’t have at least some idea of an answer. But I think for some reason what came up is empowerment. What can you give your partner that they definitely need is empowerment. You can never go wrong empowering someone. Right. And I think if you start to think about how can you empower your partner, even if they’re not requesting that, even if they’re not declaring it, there’s going to be some kind of positive outcome that comes out of that. There is a positive relationship that comes out of that. There’s positive energy. There’s good support. Then maybe that helps them lead to what oh, I’m discovering now something about myself, because I’m empowered. When someone is disempowered, it’s actually part of the definition of traumas is the disempowerment of someone and that will close off somebody to even being able to explore or feel safe to go on that inquiry.

Marty: [00:10:42] So safety comes to mind. Creating a safe space. I think when we first started our conversation it was things like talking about exes. Yeah. Which I couldn’t do because I was so jealous and so triggered by it. Because I felt incomplete. And I felt like you would want them more and you settled for me. There’s so many stories there. And I’ve been cheated. I’ve been left. There’s all sorts of things in my past, not from you. But from previous relationships that brought in. And in the process of asking you about your fantasies, you couldn’t tell me. And so I did the homework for you. I read like every Cosmo article out there. I’m top five women. I cross-referenced, I did a bilateral. What do they call it? A cross-disciplinary study and discovered, okay. Then I started testing them. What about this? What about that? And then I realized that in a lot of these journals I was reading about these articles, it was men can’t talk about exes. And this is a big breakdown. I’m one of those men and why? And then what am I jealous of? These people don’t even exist in your life anymore. And if they do, what’s the threat? I was thinking, I didn’t want a virgin. I like sex. I like good sex.

Kyle: [00:11:56] You have me this peptalk when I was having my own freakout.

Megan: [00:11:56] I don’t want someone that doesn’t know what the fuck they’re doing or can’t talk about or won’t evolve. I value your sexual experiences so that we can have our sexual experiences. So I should be thinking these men was really the change of orientation. So it’s okay, well then what did I do? I think I created a safe space because I started asking you a questions you asked that you couldn’t have otherwise ever brought up.

Megan: [00:12:23] I wouldn’t have thought about them even.

Marty: [00:12:25] Well you wouldn’t have because I shut you down.  I’m sorry.

Megan: [00:12:25] Exactly. So I think that that’s a coping mechanism, which is denial. Yeah. Your apology is received and accepted a long time ago. It feels like another person to go. So I feel like I have gone into denial about a lot of my own needs and wants because it didn’t fit. It wasn’t part of the paradigm. Yeah. So that’s part of it. Back to your point, which is how do you empower? How do you create a safe space.

Kyle: [00:12:50] I feel like that is generational denial of women’s wants and needs. And sometimes I’ll be frustrated with you. And I think I started to have compassion to say. Yeah, yeah. Because it’s like I feel like I’ve created a safe space. We’ve created a safe space. I just expect you to just turn it on and be like, oh, I’m now safe. Men have created such an environment that’s so unsafe for women to feel that safety to express, to declare what they want. And I think that you’re still working through the process. And I think this is good. And it’ll take time. And I think other people may encounter that as well. Especially for women, I think that’s it’s generational. It’s deep, deep within our DNA.

Megan: [00:13:36] Yeah. I mean, first I had to create a place of safety for myself to be woah, I can acknowledge these things. I can share them just with myself first and to not judge myself because if we’re talking about sexual requests. There’s a whole bunch of shame, judgment, repression around women’s sexuality that I’m just now uncovering here. I’m just now uncovering. But I didn’t know that. I didn’t know that I didn’t know it. So it was like, you know, whatever. I can’t go back and change the past. But now I feel like this is a whole renaissance of my own sexuality. Like, why do you want this? You know, and that’s OK. That’s OK for me.

Marty: [00:14:12] And it can be hot.

Kyle: [00:14:14] And it’s good energy.  Good vibes.

Marty: [00:14:14] When you said empowerment, I like getting to the axiom of things like empowerment and really defining things. I love etymology and the source of words, but also like the meaning of something, empowering is giving power. Right. And I think in US society and what we’re finding throughout the world as we travel is there’s a lot of taking power as a form of power control, like men suck all the power up and we disempower people that take more power. And to me, that’s a cowardly way of taking power. It’s a false power. If you have a surplus of power in your life, you’re able to give it away. And I think showing that as a way to create a safe space for someone. So, for instance, if you have a partner that can’t speak up for themselves, then helping them speak up by giving them the power to do so, by bringing the guard down.

Megan: [00:15:05] And to be vulnerable first. Lead with vulnerability. I think lead with vulnerability and I see both of you two doing that again and again and again. And I think that’s how actually you’ve created safe spaces. You shared something about your sexual needs, wants, desires. It was like something about you.

Marty: [00:15:21] That wasn’t in the car. That was in the kitchen. I remember this. I had no idea the power of this, but it was very casual for me. But it’s so impactful for you. It was that I realized and this Kinsey scale, like zero is totally straight. Six is totally homosexual. And that no one’s a zero. And no one’s a six and three is bi. And you’re somewhere in the spectrum. So the idea of spectrum. And I have a lot of gay friends and my brothers bi and my old business partners gay and all these. I’m very comfortable. And, you know, I’m not, like, afraid of. I’m not homophobic. I’m not afraid. You know, we hung out in boys town. I enjoy myself and its the best music in Chicago. It’s the best music in Chicago, a side note. Oh, he’s as straight male, a one, the most straight you could be. And I came up to you, I don’t think that’s actually true. I think I’m more like a two of anything because I don’t have these fears and seeing two men kiss doesn’t turn me on. But it doesn’t turn me off. If it’s love. I love it. It’s great. It’s beautiful. It’s not something I want because it’s not something that I’m attracted to for myself. This was kind of the realization of like, oh, I came upstairs like casually, you know, I think I’m a two and it shattered your brain.

Megan: [00:16:48] I’ve known you for so long at that point. And it just. Yeah, it unlocked something. It’s like, whoa, he is more open than I thought he was.

Marty: [00:16:55] Sex got so much better after that.

Megan: [00:16:57] And then I got better and better. Yeah. All right. Back to back to how we start these conversations, which I think is key. And I have more questions.

Marty: [00:17:06] That was a vulnerable share.

Megan: [00:17:07] It was a vulnerable share.

Marty: [00:17:08] Yeah, that is the point. I think the point is that..

Kyle: [00:17:13] Someone has to start it off, kick it off.

Marty: [00:17:14] Well, you got to be vulnerable to lead. So I think is what’s the easiest way to make a safe space is to drop your guard and to be vulnerable.

Megan: [00:17:22] So going back to fears, I think even saying with your partners or partner or partners, hey, I want to have a conversation with you, but actually I’ve been afraid to have this conversation and I don’t know why. It’s it can be irrational. But I actually just I just feel afraid. And I want to tell you that it’s vulnerable, like share something and it drops all guard.

Marty: [00:17:43] Can I add to that? In the sense of also saying, well, I’m afraid. And then describe your fear of loss of the relationship. I’m fearing like this relationship means so much to me. I had this with my partner and that this really should mean so much to me that I’m afraid to say something. Because I don’t want to lose you and first create the agreement that there is no loss for being honest and being vulnerable and an answer can be no. And accept that. Like I want to express myself and declare a war. But an answer can be no. And I will allow for that. I have gratitude for everything that we have. But I. I need a safe space and I don’t want to lose you because I was honest.

Kyle: [00:18:27] I told Megan very early on. I don’t know when I told you, but it was at some point I may just renounce all my possessions and just move to a Buddhist temple somewhere. And you’re just like, okay, I’m still cool with you. I love you.

Megan: [00:18:43] Was that before we traveled to.

Kyle: [00:18:43] Yeah, I think so. I had this weird feeling around, I think a lot of things are going to change for me.

Megan: [00:18:51] No, you know, what you said it. You’re like, I kind of want to just live out of a van and travel.Oh yeah. We’re in New Zealand now. That’s how they live here.

Marty: [00:19:01] Well, I so with my partner at the time when we were still working things out, there was still a lot of fear for both of us. She’s like going through this process of not wanting to be identified as weird and kind of she’s back in her own place. It was after an amazing trip and she’s supposed to come visit us again. And she’s hesitant to book her ticket. And there’s all this like break down going on. I remember I’m standing in a field, a farm field in Belgium. At your old host Mom’s place. And I’m on my phone in the middle of a field for like an hour just staring at corn or whatever the fuck it is I’m staring at. I knew in a moment I’m like, you know what? I’m going to say something to you that I’m a bit afraid. I’ve been afraid to communicate with you because I don’t want to lose you. But I’m at a point where I’m willing to risk it because I hear something that is irrational and I’m going to just say it to you. You can be normal. Do you want to be normal like everybody else in this? You’re in your society where it’s gonna be cheating and deception and hiding and all this stuff to maintain a relationship that feels like it fits society or you’re weird, which is kind of one or the other which one do you want to choose. And like from what I heard in our past and all our communication, everything is. This is more the way you want to live. So I’m not going to leave you. I’m not going to do it. But I’m also willing to lose you if you’re not interested in this. But you have to decide for yourself. I had to really risk the relationship to be bold and confront her. And in the past, I wouldn’t have confronted her because I felt so lucky to have what I had. But it was that moment realizing that, you know, if I express myself. And fully express myself because I’m all in already. I fully in love with her. If I express myself and it ends, then I didn’t really have anything to begin with. And it wasn’t gonna stand this test of time. And now is the time to express that. And it turned out to be exactly what she wanted to hear and what she needed to hear. And it helped her turn the corner. We talk about those moments now and kind of laugh at them.

Megan: [00:21:06] So those moments bring us closer. We’re so afraid of them. Were so afraid of expressing our wants or desires. But they they bring us closer.

Marty: [00:21:15] Well, we were late in vulnerability. We don’t relate. And everything is great.

Kyle: [00:21:19] It disarms. Yeah. There is an energetic,peaceful connection.

Megan: [00:21:25] Do you have an example of a challenging time for you to express a want or desire either in our relationship or any other ones?

Kyle: [00:21:34] Yeah, I mean, I’m trying to think. Well, I mean, one of the things I’ve been thinking about is that it’s become more and more important for me to understand your needs, Marty. And and I think this actually is important. So because we have these weird ways that we’re chunking time, right? So I’ll come and travel with you guys for a month or two months at a time. It’s like you’re trying to do the best as as Megan’s partner and supporting me and her having a lot of time together. And I think what I’ve realized is that in that effort, which is very, very amazing and I appreciate it. It also can sacrifice your needs. The needs that you two have to each other. And I think we’ve come now to a point where you’ve voiced to me, hey, would be awesome if I get one date night a week or something like that with Megan while you’re having this intensive time together. That was a huge moment for me to understand. Yeah, we’ve had a couple of breakdowns where we are really intense Megan and I for 30 days straight and you know, you’re with your partner at that time. But even so, you guys still have certain needs with each other that I think that we don’t always get the situation. Yeah. No matter the situation. And we want to get as much time in with each other as possible. But I think you can’t sacrifice those things. And for me to know and actually stand for and say this is something that you guys should do tonight and I’ll support you by watching the kids or whatever, maybe.

Marty: [00:23:11] Yeah, for you. For us, it is a realization I think we’re on a date night every six weeks by accident. Oh, the kids are with somebody and we are together and there’s no one else around.  Let’s have a date. You know, like I remember one time it resulted in midday acid in the middle of the park. Amazing.

Megan: [00:23:32] That’s another story. That was great.

Marty: [00:23:35] But those are amazing and serendipitous moments. But it would be is good to do maintenance and to have those dates and to to have those moments to reflect and enjoy the value of the structure of relationships so that we can appreciate everybody more.

Kyle: [00:23:55] And then get having we’re really good at, you know, declaring once. Right. We’re really good at getting what we want to it to probably a negative degree. Yeah. So in that you know, using that as a positive, I think we can maybe lead not only with declaring what we want. Vulnerably, but also trying to create that, you know, that environment where everyone, you know, other partners, the females in the polycule or in the relationship structure can can also voice their needs and make sure that’s just as important as ours.  

Megan: [00:24:28] Or even taking out gender. You know, you can have a person that’s more comfortable expressing wants and needs and another person that’s less comfortable. And I put myself in the category of less comfortable. Getting better. Definitely getting better from. For me, it’s been even a process of actually taking the time to ask myself. It’s like first the relationship with myself. What is it that I need in this moment? Because I will constantly give my energy and attention. And I’ve noticed that even traveling over the last couple of weeks here in New Zealand where I’m like, okay, make sure the kids are good. Make sure Kyle’s good and Marty’s good or we’re all good and managing all these relationships. I’m like, fuck, I’m exhausted because I’m not taking time to kind of recharge myself or do what I would normally do, which is hey I’m going for a solo run or I’m going to journal or, you know, all those other things. I think not out of a lack of desire to want to want to express those things and to want to kind of maintain my own communication with everybody is even just valuing and prioritizing the inner research. The inner world of what is it that I need in this moment? I’m actually remembering a moment when the twins were born.

Megan: [00:00:00] And it was the first time that it hit me, for any new parent out there and especially new mom, it’s really disorienting. I didn’t have any sleep. There was a moment where I was by myself and I was walking to the bathroom. And I remember taking a deep breath and asking myself, what is it that I actually need in this exact moment? And it was very simple. It was either I need to pee. I’m hungry. I need to get some food or I need a nap. Like I was right on track with the babies. Do I need to use the bathroom and sleep or eat? That was it. It was a very primary, but it was I remember going, holy shit, this is the first time I’ve actually asked myself, what is it that I need in this moment?

Marty: [00:00:42] One of the things I try to do is witness what you need and just give it to you. Hey, Megaan, I’ve got the kids. Go what you need to do. And I don’t know if that’s helpful because you often require that.

Megan: [00:00:56] You’ve become my crutch over the years. Yeah. Yeah. I’ve relied on you to actually tell me what I need at any given moment.

Marty: [00:01:03] Not tell you.  

Kyle: [00:01:04] I usually ask Marty anyways, what does Megan need?

Megan: [00:01:08] You read me.

Marty: [00:01:09] I recognize it.  

Megan: [00:01:10] You read me before I read myself, which happens a lot in our relationship. Yeah. That’s actually interesting. And I don’t think I ever realized that I kind of use you as a crutch to read me to go, oh, this is what I need. Then I depend on you to say, well, Megan, go for a run, why don’t you do this? And I’ve atrophied. There’s a middle ground there, I’m sure.  I’ve kind of atrophied my muscle.

Kyle: [00:01:30] Well, can feel disempowering. You know, it’s not like anything that you’ve done.  You can feel now I don’t know if I don’t have Marty, in a situation with me and you, if Marty’s not there. If I’m asking you and you’re like I don’t know. That’s a moment or a feeling of being disempowered.

Marty: [00:01:49] I’m going to send Kyle texts.

Kyle: [00:01:51] What’s her face look like?

Marty: [00:01:52] Run her. Give her a run, feed her at this time.  Give her water.

Megan: [00:02:04] This is how you take care of Megan. Water her every couple days. She’s good.

Kyle: [00:02:16] That should be the responsibility of the longest partner to provide a list of things.

Megan: [00:02:24] What’s so interesting about this inquiry is that we aren’t actually trained to be aware of what we need in any given moment. Like it’s not a conversation in our society. So you go to school every day and your told what to do. You have parents that tell you what you need to do.

Marty: [00:02:42] You’re also told what your needs are. So that’s another thing that we broke when we decided to sell everything and leave. You need a house. You need a car. You need it this way, you need a living room with these pieces of furniture. And as we applied minimalistic practices, you don’t need a whole lot. And the more you have, the more you need to maintain. And the more you need to maintain, the less energy you have for other things. And then the more you don’t maintain becomes neglectful. And that’s an energy leak as well. And I feel like we’re just told that these are our needs.

Kyle: [00:03:12] That was one thing I was just thinking about as Marty and I went on this hike and we talked about this earlier. But what what was happening, I think on that hike would mean you were having like guy time and hiking through the mountains is that I think we both realized that Megan meets a need for both of us that we have that comes from, you know, deep traumas in our past, which is the commitment and kind of the trust that we had in Megan that we know if we’re gonna be loved by her. We know that her love is endless and long lasting and forever.

Marty: [00:03:45] Somewhat conditional.

Megan: [00:03:48] Do you run me every week? Come on gentleman.

Kyle: [00:03:56] I’m getting other ideas. There was a moment definitely for me of realizing that we both have a significant need met one that we both I think yeah. We can probably walk this whole earth and not find it many times.

Megan: [00:04:11] Thank you.  Or now twice I think with Marty.

Marty: [00:04:16] I’m very much in love.

Megan: [00:04:19] And I guarantee you that you will be in more committed relationships, but I love filling that need for both of you. It satisfies a need for me as well. And I think that there’s something so amazing to have our needs met through these partnerships.

Marty: [00:04:36] One of the things that’s hit me like Mike Tyson, Mike Tyson is my favorite quote. Everybody’s got a plan until you get punched in the face. Needs. And this goes to anybody out there facing this fear of communicating your needs to someone else. One of the things that has to be established for a safe place is that not one person can fulfill all needs. In a way, we feel like if someone else fulfills a need for our partner, that we will be replaced.

Kyle: [00:05:07] That’s kind of relieving, right, as you realize you don’t have to be the one to do all of that.

Marty: [00:05:12] Yeah, that’s the counter intuitive experience of it is like, wow. Kyle feels this need for Megan to talk endlessly about the systems theory.

Kyle: [00:05:21] Megan has a strong sex drive. This might take more than one man.

Marty: [00:05:28] Seriously? Holy, shit. Or my partner and I have overlap in kind of career ambition or ikigai and what we want to pursue in the world. And you and I started talking about anything in my career. Just shut off immediately and look at me with dead eyes. And hate, the dead eyes and shut out of like if I hear about technology one more time, I will put my head in the oven.

Megan: [00:05:58] There’s so many times where I’m so thankful that you’re talking with your partner and especially because I feel like she feels certain needs to support you in ways that I really appreciate, different ways than what I could do for you. And I love that. And yeah, it’s like it’s such a cornerstone of polyamory. Is this willingness or this acknowledgement of we don’t have to fill all the needs of our partner.

Marty: [00:06:20] And the sexuality part too changes, the new relationship energy is real. Right. And the sexuality and sex that I’m experiencing with my partner is amazing and playful and fun. And ours has evolved into something new. Because we know each other so well that in a way it can it can become monotonous. It can become something that we’re just used to. And now we’ve changed up our process and it’s been really great for us.

Megan: [00:06:47] Thats another, we will record that separately.

Marty: [00:06:51] That’s another one about improving my orgasm, which is something about me getting to receive in a way that I would generally just give. And now I feel like, wow, I can work on the intensity that I receive.

Kyle: [00:07:05] You are exploring some wants and desires there as well.

Marty: [00:07:07] Yeah, it’s like next level personal sexuality and sexual performance. I will give a precursor. It’s things like edging and just receiving, not giving. Right. Then there’s like a role reversal and dominance. There’s this you know, I’ve been so oriented towards other. But I get that with my other partner and I get that experience. So this has been new and it’s just a new awesome experience.

Megan: [00:07:38] That’s really cool. Yeah, I never got that. When other partners fill our partners needs that can shift taken in by that need being fulfilled a certain way can open up another door.

Marty: [00:07:48] Yeah. You can you can leverage it. I think the key point here for me to express to everybody that’s listening who’s in this fear state of loss for expressing a need is that is incredibly counterintuitive. But vulnerability, having another partner fulfill needs, changing, being flexible with your needs, being vocal about these things, being in trust that if this relationship is really sound, you’ll work through it all. And not only being courageous, but getting to a point of accepting all consequences for yourself and trust yourself. You’re more whole and stronger than you actually know. Especially if you’ve already stepped into this world.

Kyle: [00:08:28] I think the last thing I would just add to that is if you are a person that is sitting there thinking, I don’t know what I need. I don’t know what I want. The strange part of that for me and what I learned is that when I feel triggered, you know, usually that we take that as a really bad thing. You’re going into a fight or flight response, but that is actually an opportunity to figure out, number one is there a need that’s not being met or it’s somehow being threatened. So there’s there’s a need there in that feeling, that feeling of being triggered. Or is there something that has there’s something that you’re. I think there’s some trauma there. There are some trauma that, again, that can be connected to something that you probably need to do, which is heal that.

Marty: [00:09:18] And I would hint that its worthiness. If you don’t feel like you have a ready answer once, then you probably don’t feel worthy to have needs or wants.

Kyle: [00:09:27] And that goes into self-love.

Megan: [00:09:30] Yeah. And vice versa because we’ve been talking about the person if you’re requesting the need. But what if you’re the recipient of it? What if you’re listening to your partner make a request or a need? And that doesn’t mean what if you get triggered in that state as well?

Kyle: [00:09:42] I don’t know why would we ever feel that a request or a need being expressed by someone, would ever cause our needs to not be met? You know what I mean? I mean, there’s never been a situation for any of us here where there was a need that was desired or requested that caused one of us not to have a need met.

Marty: [00:10:05] It’s not a replacing thing, it’s not one or the other.

Megan: [00:10:09] But I will say before, because I was coming from a paradigm of I’m not enough or I’m not good enough. So if Marty was making a request of me that I wasn’t meeting, then I could fold back on myself and say, well, I’m not enough because he’s making this request. Yeah. And then it goes back to worthiness. But I think that that that’s where when we empower ourself to say, you know, I am who I am and sometimes I can’t meet certain needs, you know, for either of you. And now I don’t know how exactly I got here. It’s through the course of over these two years and lots of conversations and lots of overcoming. But if there was a need that you requested that I couldn’t meet. I think I would be able to hold a place in myself that’s a little bit more solid to say like I can’t you know, that’s where that no comes in. You can request this, but no, I can’t. Either I can’t do it right now, which is of a viable answer. It’s not that I don’t want to, but it’s just right now I can’t meet that need. Let’s say I’m just kind of give an example. Like let’s say a partner says, I would like to explore having an open relationship, because I think that’s probably the first question that starts a lot of this. And the partner can say no, but that’s a no, not right now, but maybe I can be open to it. And I want to explore, you know, I would explore it a little bit more. It doesn’t mean that it can’t ever happen. Yeah. There’s it’s empowering to say no. It really is to say like no.

Marty: [00:11:24] And those questions you are not asking. Those needs are not asking for you’re dying a thousand deaths on because you’re sitting in the what ifs and what could be and you’re not actually giving yourself an opportunity to get to know and process the no.

Kyle: [00:11:40] And full circle, you will be triggered if your needs are not being met. I mean, it’s really, really simple. Yeah. Yeah, it’s going to keep happening over and over.

Megan: [00:11:48] You will resent your partner for not meeting your needs that are unexpressed. Yeah. And where does that go, ladies and gentlemen, train wreck.

Marty: [00:11:56] Can I just say I love the fact that you use the phrase I fold in on myself, because I came from a point where I was on acid. I was in Brazil.

Kyle: [00:12:06] I’ve been using that, too.

Marty: [00:12:11] I was incredibly articulate for the amount of how out there I was. And I was like I had this experience of two things. I saw demons and I was like, not this trip. This is fun. And I was like, go away. And they did. The second thing is I was an incredibly articulates point where I was like, wow, I’m folding in on myself. Like I was having this experience of kind of going down my own rabbit hole of re-experiencing my own issue over and over and over again.

Megan: [00:12:40] And you leaned over to me at one point and I’d fall asleep at this point and your like I’m unfolding into myself. And I can see how if I wasn’t as mentally strong, that this would be a problem. But I’m OK.

Marty: [00:12:54] It was that I can see how someone who hasn’t had the experience or the mental discipline to understand what’s going on for me could lose themselves in one of these experiences in a bad trip. I’m notorious for being able to be on my own in an alternative state and not need someone to rescue me. I can rescue myself in these states. I don’t know if I have two minds. I’ve experimented with things like I don’t do this all the time, so I don’t like. This is not something to ask. Like five times in my life or six times, even like an ayahuasca ceremony and these types of things. I get very articulate his points. I love the fucking fact that you use the fold in on myself.

Megan: [00:13:44] It makes sense, right? That should be a phrase we can hold in on ourselves. That’s when you get stuck in your own patterns, it’s a spiral. OK. But I do want to point out the use of psychedelics or things like MDMA to get yourself to a state where you can actually express your needs and desires with your partner. Oh, it’s fucking awesome.

Marty: [00:14:02] MDMA saved our marriage.

Megan: [00:14:02] MDMA there is a reason that they are fast tracking that drug.

Marty: [00:14:08] Let’s be. But not everyone is going to agree. Yeah. Give me a personal example. You think whatever you want to think about it. I don’t really give a fuck. MDMA is molly or ecstasy, that kind of thing. But where I was at when in the 2008-2009 economic apocalypse, I had three companies go into a catastrophic failure mode and I almost broke my truck off for bridge in July 29, 2009. And I pulled back from that. And I was in a deep state of despair. I couldn’t get out of bed. I was like in a constant state of panic attacks, super anxiety, I had tons of depression. And you were like on the fence of like, holy shit, I’ve got to run.

Megan: [00:14:50] I didn’t know how to support you.

Marty: [00:14:52] Luckily, we had a concert in Chicago. I’m not going to name it. And we had Molly and which is MDMA. And we we ended up getting into the conversation that saved our marriage because it took away all of the fear. It took away all of the ego. It took away the anxiety. It took away the depression. And we were very, very present and very, very compassionate towards each other. And it was an opportunity for me to express. It was all of the chakras. It was a moment where I could express to you that I hadn’t given up, but I was very badly beaten and I needed time to recover. And it was an opportunity for you to hear that. So like it was a therapy for us. And we’ve used it as therapy throughout our relationship in very difficult times for very difficult things. And so there is this idea of, you know, all these people out there and micro dosing and psilocybin. Magic mushrooms. I only know the actual street terms, but, you know, even a neurosurgeon, a top neurosurgeon, he is exploring these things. And be careful if you’re thinking about these things, too. I think a lot of people use alcohol too much. And then you get to a deep state of you just let it all out. You lose inhibition, but you’re also in that state of completely drunk. You’re also not really processing. You’re just dumping your kind of vomiting out this experience. Versus something like a tailored experience of the right audience. So the right communication with someone guiding this thing with the right kind of thing you can. There are other ways around it.

Megan: [00:16:38] I would say we’ve used it maybe at least every year, maybe annually for the last 20 years for our relationship.

Marty: [00:16:45] That much huh?

Megan: [00:16:51] A little bit more in my 20s. Just a little bit. But that was for a reason. We were using it as therapy before we knew why that worked. And I think why that works is it just takes down the ego. It takes down that that fear that just that reactive state, it just kind of dissipates.

Marty: [00:17:09] And you don’t need it. If you can create a safe space, you can lead with vulnerability. You can accept all consequences. You can trust yourself that you can handle it no matter even if it’s bad. And, you know, loss, pain is inevitable and suffering is resistance to pain.

Marty: [00:17:29] And I feel like that one of the things that kind of comes to mind that is that, you know, my partners, oh this lifestyle is hard. There’s going to be a lot of pain in the future. And when there’s pain in every relationship, monogamous, traditional, conservative, poly, queer, straight, gay, whatever, there’s pain inevitably. Inevitably, if you’re relating to others, there is a cost and pain. You’ve got to choose which pains are right for you. You got to choose which pains are worth it and go down the path of choosing the challenges that are worthy of your life. And that knowing that you have the capacity to overcome challenges.

Kyle: [00:18:09] I’ve been thinking a lot about that because you you brought that up about relationships being hard and and they can be painful. And I think I do agree. And that’s been my experience. But I’ve started being an idealist. You know, whatever I’ll put it out there is that I’ve started to do some work where the pain of relationships has actually been something where this is my creation. A lot of these things are my reactions, my interpretations, my perceptions, my traumas that I’m bringing to these relationships. And I can control and I can improve that.

Marty: [00:18:51] Yeah, you can lessen the pain because I get more whole with yourself and you get more clear about that. But the pain is inevitable. There’s a lot that don’t know that you don’t know.

Kyle: [00:19:01] And I think I think actually. Yeah. I actually was thinking about the pain is OK. You know, the pain makes the good stuff better. And I actually think I’m starting to love myself more than I ever have. And I can feel that because I’ve actually hated myself to a really deep, dark degree. And I’m thankful for that. And thankful because that that’s taught me what, you know, the good stuff feels like and provided the contrast. Yeah. I want to keep that.

Megan: [00:19:32] Know that’s actually a good point that we have needs, wants, desires that we can meet for ourselves, you know, to be heard by ourselves to acknowledge certain things. And maybe that’s the first layer of the conversation. I keep coming back to the same spot because I feel like that’s the spot that means the most to me right now. I’m curious. Would you be willing to talk about. Just to wrap this. Some needs or requests in our dynamic here that we either that we haven’t talked about or like really make it real. Let’s walk the walk here.

Marty: [00:20:09] Are you talking like blow jobs? Megan is amazing. Oh, that’s what I forgot to do for a worldwide audience. Right. And I wanted to make your blow jobs world famous.

Kyle: [00:20:23] I’m ready for this.

Marty: [00:20:23] They’re amazing. There you go. Megan’s world famous blowjobs. No. For real? I don’t know that’s a good question.  What needs do I have that I haven’t expressed? I don’t know. I feel like a lot of what I’m experiencing right now is uncovering needs I didn’t know I had. I need to tackle or really go at this dragging out of isolation. And I need to have some compassion around this fear of being disconnected. It’s painful. It’s visceral for me. And so I don’t know I need compassion.

Kyle: [00:21:11] I’ve been having some weird dreams the last few days.

Marty: [00:21:15] BDSM dreams?

Kyle: [00:21:20] Marty.  Maybe. I probably get one every night. But I’ve been having these dreams where I’m not getting attention from Megan. And that’s not Megan’s fault. It’s a dream. I wake up every morning and I’m like its not her fault. You have to forgive me. But maybe it’s my subconscious saying, you know, that’s a request that I need to make. And that’s kind of something that I’ve been working on as like, what is the attention that I need? What kind of attention do I need? And I’ve been talking to Megan about that. And she actually says something really good, which is, you know, if you’re feeling that if you feel like you want attention. You can also give attention and as a beautiful way of kind of creating an energy that will come back to you. But also it quenches that need. And I did that earlier today where I wanted attention. I went up to you and I stopped and touched you and slowed you down. Yeah. And that was that was me making that request, but also, you know, making a practice out of how can I empower myself to also give what I’m asking for? Because we all want attention.

Marty: [00:22:32] So what I can contribute to that is I can take away any fear of me having time to myself here, because I’m actually enjoying a bed by myself for the moment, because, like, we have kids and I sleep in diagonal line beds, I’m in a comfy bed, I’m good, I’ve been going into my books.

Kyle: [00:22:48] You’ve been amazing Marty and I’m grateful.

Marty: [00:22:50] If you need and have the desire to have more attention than bow out at 8pm, I put the kids to bed. you know ask for that. I’d be happy to deliver that. there is something I’m more than happy to give, but I’m not happy to read your mind. Right.

Kyle: [00:23:08] I’m working on getting there because I don’t know if I need attention to myself. Sometimes I need to recharge on my own. And I haven’t known is that it? Or this is something I need from Megan. Mm hmm. Yeah. It’s. But I will make that request more clear.

Megan: [00:23:31] Yeah, I think for me there’s too. I know I’m working on getting better at figuring out what I need in the moment and if I need alone time that I that I can request that if I need to go for a run or take myself aside and meditate or just journal. Work on Amory stuff. I love it. And I know that I will usually default to going to either you two or the kids to like occupy myself to keep would like to keep them busy, do whatever to show that, you know, checking in on both of you like make sure it is good and avoidance of. Yeah, exactly. It totally is. I think compassion and I’m recognizing that and knowing that’s my kind of go to where it’s like, well, I’ve got to put the kids to bed. So now I can’t do anything else. It’s weird to say that’s kind of my drug of choice. Like I will keep myself being a busybody instead of actually doing the internal work in carving out a quiet moment for myself.

Marty: [00:24:34] It’s the same thing as my isolation. I use technical connection to avoid time with myself.

Megan: [00:24:41] Yeah. So I keep using you. You two. And the kids like it. Honestly, it’s a lot the kids. Like I would keep like inserting myself where they don’t need me there.

Marty: [00:24:50] Yeah. Different parenting styles sometimes you like. I have to remind Megan all the time, like don’t disturb homeostasis just like the kids they are playing their jury system. And Megan will be like, hey, I should parent right now. No shut up, leave them alone. Like we paid for twins upfront with IVF, being expensive. It cost us a lot of energy and time and but there’s a benefit as we can entertain each other. And they do. And they do it. Leave them the fuck alone.

Megan: [00:25:21] And honestly, sometimes use you two entertain each other. You know, you’re off like talking, having conversation and you are fulfilling. Actually, I’ve been so thankful for that because I think you two have a fulfilled, a conversational need that is kind of exhausting for me to have to if I insert myself if I keep thinking I’m the one that has to be that for both of you. But when I see you two engaged in really amazing, serious, like contributory, if that’s a word conversation to each other, I’m like, yeah. Shit. I got a free moment and it feels good. I don’t know what my request is in there. That’s my work. What is my request in this request? Is just to know that I’m working through that and time. And so, yeah, I like even that. I’m okay. And open to being called out a bit. Yeah. I don’t know. I want to get better at doing it myself. So I’m not asking you to like prep me for it. Don’t pull a Marty. Which is like why do you take some time by yourself. Yeah. But just know that I’m working on that one. And you can maybe point out things afterwards. I do want feedback so I can get better at it.

Kyle: [00:26:22] I think I’m working on the same thing, making requests around attention and trying to be conscious of what kind of attention do I need and when. And that effects both of you.

Megan: [00:26:33] Sorry I was totally thinking about what I wanted to say next. And I blanked on what you just said.

Marty: [00:26:43] Do you want us to play it back for you?

Megan: [00:26:44] The benefit of recording this is by guys. I think the next one is because I’m going to put this in full practice. I’m a little afraid to make this request. I don’t think it will jeopardize anything. But I can tell where this is coming from for me and that I already see you two, relating together really, really well. And I’m really appreciative of that I think for you’re more in this position than Kyle is, at least for right now. But because you have another partner and you want both of us to communicate well together, you want us to have a relationship. And I guess my request is that you think about that when you think about you two connecting. Like, how would you want me and your partner connecting? If I had a request for her, would you want me to stay frustrated and not say anything? Or would you need to communicate that you do that?

Marty: [00:27:34] You also understand that sometimes our need is to slow the fucking roll and we need time, you know? We will get to it. You have to trust that. We went and lifted weights and its another built in polyamory benefit. Spotters. You need to realize that like sometimes we’re going to be  frustrated. And we need we need a minute. We need time. Yeah, we’ll come around. We made this promise to the world that we have to work it out. We’re committed to it.

Megan: [00:28:12] I do. I do trust that. I think I’ve heard your requests to want me to communicate more with your partner. And I keep coming back to actually that same thing, which is like trust. Trust that we will connect. Well, we will be in person. W

Marty: [00:28:24] I just want you to make out.

Megan: [00:28:26] We will be in person together.

Kyle: [00:28:34] That was my other dream.

Marty: [00:28:34] I guess the frustration for me, is that you’re both declaring the same thing and then doing nothing. And I’m just a person of action. You know, to a fault. If it’s like I’m going to try vegetarianism and then boom. I’m a vegetarian. I just do those things we decide and go.

Kyle: [00:28:56] Compassion and trust for all.

Megan: [00:28:58] Yeah. Thank you, guys. This is special like the end of this conversation to where we get to be a bit more vulnerable. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. I’m so fucking lucky.

Marty: [00:29:08] And now I would call to our audience if you’re going through something and you have a specific scenario that you’re struggling with. Ask us. Maybe we can make it an anonymous podcast. And then we’re also doing things for our Patreon members. I believe they’re called patrons. More intimate questions answered in more intimate statements, more vulnerability that is more specific. And trying to keep the podcasts public that we feel like we’ll reach the greater audience. So, you know, join us on Patreon. If you have the means, we have patreon levels that are like two bucks to buy us a cup of coffee. Even if you can’t ask us questions, ask us. And that that’s fuel for us to answer specific things. And if you have a specific scenario that’s driving you nuts. Ask and maybe we can reveal something in our relationship that we’ve gone through that will help you. You’re not alone. The one thing we’ve learned, I think throughout all of this is we join the community of polyamorous people online and in-person knows that it’s a really supportive community with every scenario under the sun possible. And you’re not alone.

[00:30:15] And we love you.

[00:30:16] And we love you. Love you guys. Thank you.